Record breaking and recently retired former New Zealand captain Richie McCaw was in Dublin on Tuesday, less than 24 hours after he picked up the Laureus World Team of the Year award in Berlin in recognition of a second successive World Cup title in England last October.
He proved engaging and forthcoming company as he offered his thoughts on a variety of topics including why Joe Schmidt may one day coach the All Blacks, how New Zealand had the belief to come back and beat Ireland 24-22 at the Aviva stadium in 2013 and the pressure of being the captain of his country.
He also spoke about completing a punishing 530-kilometre unsupported adventure race called the Godzone last week in New Zealand that incorporated mountain biking, trekking, kayaking and rafting as a ‘wind down’ following his retirement from rugby last October after leading New Zealand to a second successive World Cup title.
Intrigued by the mental and physical rigours of a challenge that took him some way north of his comfort zone, the player with a record 148 Test match appearances conceded that sleep deprivation – about 10 hours in total over the five days – induced the odd hallucination; ones that didn’t include the delirium of believing that Ireland had beaten the All Blacks three years ago.
Here is the interview in a question and answer format.
It was just this day last week that you finished your adventure race, tell us a bit about that as a way of dealing with retirement?
It was probably a bit of a silly way of dealing with it (retirement).
530 kilometres over five days?
I guess it is something that I have always been intrigued by because I had a few mates that did it. Last year when I finished playing they asked me if I was interested and it pretty much meant that I went into a different lot of training straight after the World Cup which was a bit silly in one way. But in another way it totally got me away from rugby to something different with a challenge. It put me out of my comfort zone a wee bit.
The public all found out so there was no pulling out, there was a bit of attention on it, so I said ‘I need to do this properly.’ I had to end up training 15 hours a week; two hours a day at least and we had to do some big days as well just to get myself into shape to do it, to make sure I finished.
We took five days. It’s an unsupported one, mountain biking, trekking, kayaking, rafting. They give you the maps two hours before and you have to get yourself around in a team of four (people). I got to the end and still have sore feet from it. It was a good thing to achieve.
Ten hours sleep over five days, what was it like psychologically doing something like that compared to your rugby career?
It was quite different. Rugby is a short thing. On a rugby field you know you have a bit of experience; you know what it is all about. I didn’t know how I was going to go. When you’re into a 30-hour trek and you haven’t slept for 24 hours what are you going to do? People talk about all these things, you start hallucinating. We experienced a bit of that. That was the thing that intrigued me, how I was going to handle it.
But there were a couple of moments when I thought what am I doing? Why am I not just sitting at home with the feet up? When I got across the finishing line, I was like, ‘that was pretty cool’.
In any of those hallucinations did we (Ireland) actually hang on in the Aviva stadium and beat the All Blacks?
I didn’t quite go (downhill) that far. (Laughter)
Did we lose that mentally or did we lose it on the pitch to the All Blacks, looking back?
I just know that in a game you never have 100 per cent of momentum. Certainly for the first part of that game we were on the back foot. For 20 minutes we couldn't get anything right, the Irish didn't allow us to but there was still a lot of game to go and to keep that momentum up for a full 80 minutes is tough. I guess from our point of view I always knew it was going to swing at some point. I just took a little bit longer than we thought. Then you get to a point in the second half where I think the Irish boys, dunno, there was a bit of a wrestle where no-one had control. I can't speak for them but I sort of knew from our point of view we were starting to chip away. Now from a mental point of view I don't know from their point of view, but the one moment when Johnny Sexton lined up that goal it would have sealed it. The fact that it didn't opened the door for us and you could see our guys, we had been offered the opportunity. But that's that moment in sport. If he had been offered that again he would probably have got that goal. If we had that moment again maybe we wouldn't have scored the try. That's what intrigues you. But look I don't know, at the end of the game I felt like we didn't deserve to win, that's what I loved about the team I was involved in. We found a way to, yet we didn't deserve to. Probably didn't answer your question but . . .
When Ireland play New Zealand in Soldier’s Field in November, is that near win for Joe Schmidt’s side in 2013, will it damage Ireland’s chances or a help?
I guess it is up to the players how they look at it because the reality is the gap across the top half-a-dozen teams in the world, there isn’t much between them. On any given day you could say who should win and who shouldn’t but you have only got to be off by a little bit and that day I know the Irish were right on top of their game and didn’t allow us to be and it could have gone the other way. That’s like a reason to look forward to these games, they could take a leaf out of that ‘yeah, it is all possible’. But if you start thinking ‘ah here we go again’, that can be a barrier as well.
Can other countries catch up with New Zealand if they replicate the All Black model?
I don’t think there is that much difference really. If you’re standing still, you’re going backwards, that’s the key. What we did in October (in winning the World Cup) , if we’re not thinking about being better and finding different ways of being better, then first of all you lose that drive and desire and what it takes to perform every week and I think trying to be better is a way of keeping it going.
So that’s one thing. There’s not much between these top teams and you’re right there’s a lot of similar ideas out there but you’ve got to have your own way of doing it. You take bits out of what other teams are doing but if you try and replicate someone else you’re always going to be second (best) , I think. You look at what they’re doing, ‘yeah, okay’ and you look at what someone else is doing pretty well and you mould it around what you do, it’s one of the things that Steve (Hansen) is pretty good at. We have our own sort of vision and the way you want to do things.
The Joe Schmidt factor, what gets more notice, Clermont, Leinster, Six Nations or how Ireland play v NZ?
We all watch with a bit of interest all the teams that have the Kiwis involved with. Certainly Joe, with his record and the teams he’s been involved with has been pretty successful and I know the guys who have experienced his coaching before he came over here always talked pretty highly of him. We nearly suffered from that in 2013 so it doesn’t go unnoticed absolutely and I think down the track a guy like that could come back and coach in New Zealand, maybe the All Blacks one day. He’s the type of guy who’d be great, the experience he has is pretty awesome really.
Pat Lam, has he been noticed in New Zealand what he is doing with Connacht?
Absolutely, he’s recruited some pretty good players too, especially Aki, he’s been going pretty well from what I hear. Again, the guys who had him back in Auckland, even though they didn’t have the results under him they still rated him as a coach and perhaps when you’re the underdog and not expected to do well you get a bit of momentum and that’s perhaps what they have done.
Are Ireland taking on the All Blacks at a decent time?
There's a bit of talk about guys that have left the All Blacks, especially at home, but you look at the guys that are still there, if you look at it that way, think of Kieran Read who's played 80-something Tests, Owen Franks 80-something caps, Sam Whitelock 70-odd, there's still some experience there and yes there'll be some change and stuff. I'd hope and I don't think too many things will change but these first three Tests against Wales will be quite interesting to see how things are different. There will be some differences, but it could be a good thing too.
Do you miss playing rugby or will those Tests be the moment?
I haven’t missed the Super Rugby, to be honest. Mainly because I’ve been busy getting involved in that race and stuff like that.
But there’s no doubt that when the All Blacks run out on to the field there’ll be a bit of a (strange feeling) . . . yeah.
Not that I want to be out there, but you miss it. I had a pretty good innings and I’m pretty happy with the time I had there.
That’s the way you’ve got to look at it, it’s not about what you’re missing; it’s about the memories you have. I’m looking forward to doing other things too.
If you could reverse one result in your career, what would it be and why?
For a long time, I always said the 2007 (World Cup) quarter-final, but I’ve actually changed my view on it because I look at where we got to in the end of 2015 and I don’t think those eight years would have panned out the way they did had we not gone through that pain.
But, for a long time afterwards that’s the one that I’d change. The other time that was tough was in 2009 when we lost three in a row to the Springboks. Maybe the two in South Africa were a good lesson, we came home and said, ‘right, we’ll get them at home’ and we were beaten in Hamilton.
That was a moment that set us up for 2011, but there was some pretty big question marks over coaching, players, all those sort of things. It was a tough time.
If we’d won that game, it might have glossed over some things, but it would have been nice to have won that one.
What does it take to beat the Boks in SA?
It’s tough, it’s one of the toughest places to play; it’s pretty intimidating too. Their support around games can get on top of you a little bit.
But, on the other side of it it’s one of the great places to play. If you get a win there, it’s pretty satisfying.
The Springboks have similar issues to the All Blacks, guys moving on, a new coach (for them) and all of that. It’s probably a good opportunity for the Irish.
Is speed the key when playing SA?
“Yes and no. They’re big boys up front and you’ve got to match them there. If you do that, then you’re in business, but if you let them be bullies you’re going to have a long day.”
Which way did you want NZ flag to go?
“I wanted to see a new flag.”
The Fern?
“The fern, yeah.”
Which would have been representative of the All Blacks?
“It would have been representative of New Zealand I think, that was the thing that I was keen on. It was one of those things that everyone had an opinion on. Everyone was different for different reasons.
“The moment it hit was me was when we were standing in the tunnel before playing Australia and it was actually in Eden Park and again in the World Cup final and the two flags were there.
“I was like, ‘Jeez, they look the same’ and they do look the same. I was thinking it was a good excuse to actually have something that identifies us. We wear the silver fern on our chest and I think all Kiwi sportsmen or whatever, if you’re really going to say, ‘What’s New Zealand?’ it’s that.
“I voted for that, but quite clearly not everyone agreed and at the end of the day I guess that’s what democracy is all about, isn’t it?”
Were there offers from Europe to play on post-RWC?
“There was definitely some opportunities if I had investigated. I didn’t go down that path because I really knew that I wanted to do something different. It didn’t interest me at all to be honest.
“If I was going to still play to the level that you needed to to play in Europe, I’d rather be playing at home and still trying to play for the All Blacks.”
What countries?
“The French, yeah. To be honest, everyone thinks I get offers all the time but it’s actually them asking if you’re interested and I always said no because I didn’t want to be tempted.
“Going just for a big cheque or whatever, I knew that wasn’t the right thing for me. So I knew I didn’t want to be tempted.”
Have clubs tried to lure you into coaching?
“No, not really. One day, coaching maybe, but I just wanted to take a complete break from rugby at the moment. Going into coaching for myself would frustrate me I think.
“I’d really like to coach teenage kids, because I reckon at that age you can influence pretty awesomely and that’s the type of coaching I’d like to get into. I don’t think I’d like being a professional coach, because it wouldn’t quite substitute for playing.
“I’ve spoken to some coaches who went in there because it’s sort of what they knew. They said, ‘You think you’re a player but you’re not.’ It’s tough, so that’s probably not me.”
Is the knowledge you have from playing very different to what you need as a coach?
“Well just because you do well on the field doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good coach. You’ve seen examples of that, and vice versa. When you’re a player, you can help people. When you can go out there and do it yourself it’s a damn sight easier than having to say, ‘You go and do it now’.”
Richie in your autobiography you talk about a speech you gave before your autumn tour, I think in 2008, where you say, it’s not about wearing the jersey it’s about filling it. Did it ever seem like hard work that responsibility of being an All Black of maintaining these standards and being the best in the world, was it ever a burden on you?
“It can be seen as that. I think some players do feel that, but I also think it’s one of the things that drives the team to have expectations of themselves, that you go and win every game and perform every game. I think it’s a great thing in that regard, but if you don’t embrace it, it can become a big weight, especially if things don’t go your way.
“ Perhaps even in my career, it can get a bit heavy. You think, ‘jeez, why am I doing this?’ You have a win, and it’s sort of on to the next one, and you never actually go ‘that was a good job, well done’. But, you soon get passed it, and you go ‘well, it’s actually a privilege to have that sort of responsibility’. If you can add something to make it so that the next fellas coming along have even more expectation, because the team has done well. That’s the exciting part, but I’ve got to say, one of the reasons that I knew it was time to move on, is that it does become tough, the pressure of performing every single week to a high level. At some point you sort of go, ‘I’m not sure whether the desire, or what you need to do, may not be as easy as it was.”
All Black legend and AIG ambassador, Richie McCaw was in Dublin on Tuesday, to help promote AIG’s Telematics car insurance.
