Thank the rugby gods for YouTube and social media. As a result, the outrageous gifts of King Carlos endure, for at the dawn of the professional era in the mid-1990s until the mid-noughties and beyond, Carlos Spencer was simply the game’s most entertaining player. End of.
There were the wicked steps and the goose steps, the acceleration and the sleight of hand, be it skip passes, no-look passes or between the leg passes, the variety of kicks and the goal kicks. For a decade or so on this side of the world, Spencer and the Blues and the All Blacks were the best reason to get up on a Saturday morning. His game is synonymous with flair.
Reviewing many of the old clips was an enjoyable way of prepping for this interview. As someone puts it: “Probably the coolest player that ever lived.”
Spencer laughs and says: “I’ll take that.”
RM Block
However for such a flashy player, off the pitch he is easy-going with no airs and graces.
We meet in Foam in Terenure, a busy, popular cafe with good coffee and wifi, and an unofficial hub for the rugby club. Holding forth from his chair facing the window on a warm, sunny morning, the interview is open and candid.
Spencer has already had an energising impact at Terenure. His first game as head coach saw them win the Leinster Senior Cup final against Lansdowne, while his first AIL game was an away win at UCD.
So then, how on earth did Carlos Spencer end up at Terenure?
“It was really just through a mate, Diego Menendez, who looks after the Dogos [an Argentinian-inspired rugby team in Terenure], and we’re doing a bit of business stuff with Cross Ten Whiskey,” Spencer says. Menendez has enlisted Spencer and other former outhalfs around the world for the start-up whiskey business.
[ The inside story of how Terenure signed Carlos Spencer as a coachOpens in new window ]
“We were having a conversation one day, and he half-jokingly said: ‘Would you be interested in coaching Terenure?’ That’s how the conversation started. But then I gave it some thought and I said I could be interested. Eventually, after talking with the club we all thought we could probably make it work. And here I am, three/four months later, in Dublin!”
It’s somewhat fitting that Terenure have opened their doors to Spencer on foot of making their pitches available as a home ground to the Dogos. Named after the national dog of Argentina, though now very much a multinational team, the Dogos play in the Metro 10 and last season completed a league and cup double. Terenure are more open to players and people from outside the school or the parish in recent years, but have also harnessed a community spirit which is as strong as any in Irish club rugby.
Spencer has had coaching stints in South Africa and New Zealand, but in truth it has often seemed secondary to his business interests. The opportunity to relaunch his coaching career appealed to him.
“I haven’t done a head coaching role since I was with the Kings in Port Elizabeth back in 2015. And then getting back to grassroots rugby. That’s where it all starts.”
He sees Terenure as, potentially, a move which might lead to other opportunities down the line in Ireland, or Europe, as a coach. Spencer is 50 next month, and although his knee issues prevent him from running, he hits the gym early every day and looks fit enough to still be playing. He was lifting weights in his teens, before it was a thing.
“It just makes me feel good for the rest of the day. It’s just the way I’ve grown up. I’ve been like that ever since I can remember.”
Spencer lives in close proximity to Lakelands Park and it is further evidence of his desire to relaunch his coaching career that his wife Jodene, and kids Payton (21) and Asha (17), have remained in New Zealand.
“Unfortunately, and it’s not easy, but I think this is the lifestyle of a coach. It’s not the first time I’ve had to leave my family. We’re used to it now, and my kids are independent. My son is 21, playing professionally with the Blues. My daughter’s in her last year of high school, so she’s going to varsity next year.”
The three-week AIL Christmas break will afford him the chance to fly home and, he hopes, maybe bring Jodene, who is a schoolteacher, and their kids to Ireland for a visit.
The warmth and excitement generated by his arrival makes him feel welcome, and that he’s made the right decision. Pleasant weather for his first weeks helped: “It’s not going to be always like this. I just have to get my head around going winter to winter.”
Spencer succeeds Seán Skehan and although Terenure slipped out of the playoffs last season, they had previously reached three successive finals, winning their first AIL title in 2023. He knows expectations are high.
“It comes with any job, no matter where you go. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I just think it keeps me honest. It keeps pressure on me to make sure that I’m always performing. So, I’ve got no problem with that.”
The Menendez/Spencer link contributed to 22-year-old Argentinian outhalf Julian Leszczynski joining from Young Munster, and Terenure also have Caspar Gabriel, the Austrian 19-year-old outhalf/fullback in the Leinster academy.
“I have heard about Caspar. There’s a lot of raves about that boy, so I’m looking forward to seeing how he goes. I got the opportunity to see Julian in two games and yeah, really good.”
Very few of the players Spencer coaches can do the things he was capable of, which you’d have thought might be an issue.
“I’m a coach that does encourage guys to express themselves, to back their skill set. I’ll hardly ever have a crack at a guy for having a crack. In some ways, I do like to coach like I play, within certain parameters.
“You do need structure to a certain extent, but I do encourage the boys to back themselves and be able to make decisions in terms of what they see out on the pitch. I think that’s crucial.
“I just want the boys to enjoy doing what they do and have fun doing it. If that’s shifting the ball around and taking risks, then by all means. But at the same time, we’ve got to be smart. We don’t want to be helter-skelter, to be too flamboyant. We’ve just got to be careful around that.”
His roots in the game go deep.
“We used to play on the roads [as kids]. That’s the main reason why I did what I did and when we came home, after playing on the road, Mum used to put plasters on our bloody toes because we stubbed them from playing on the road too long. That’s just how we grew up.”
Reared in Levin, a town on the east coast of the north island of New Zealand in the Manawatu-Wanganui region, his father Graham was a loose forward, as was his older brother, Fabian.
Spencer was 16 and still in school when he played alongside Fabian in the Horowhenua Kapiti team which won the NPC third division in 1992.
“To win my first trophy with my brother was pretty special.”
In 1993 he stood out in a game against Auckland, who were coached by Graham Henry. “He approached me the following year because Grant Fox was retiring and the rest is history I suppose.”
Spencer started with Auckland in 1994 and then the Auckland Blues, also coached by Henry, when they came into existence in 1996 and he was still only 20. “I walked into a dressingroom with Olo Brown, Robin and Zinzan Brooke, Michael Jones, Eroni Clarke, Jonah Lomu, Sean Fitzpatrick ... the list goes on.
“I was in awe, a young kid out of Levin, a small country town, coming up to the big smoke and into a changing room full of superstars. I was blown away. But I was blessed to play with that kind of talent. It made my whole job a lot easier and I learned a lot quicker having Graham Henry as a coach.”
Spencer highlights Henry’s understanding of the game and analysis of opponents. “He was probably one of the first to work out the opposition through video tapes and tape recorders. How times have changed,” he says, laughing.
The list of players Spencer played alongside reads like a Who’s Who of New Zealand rugby. As well as the aforementioned Spencer played alongside Joeli Vidiri, Keven Mealamu, Xavier Rush, Joe Rokocoko, Mils Muliaina, Doug Howlett, Christian Cullen, Justin Marshall, Jeff Wilson, Tana Umaga, Ma’a Nonu, Richie McCaw and many more.
He won the first of six NPC titles in his first year with Auckland and the first of three Super Rugby titles in 1996, beating the Natal Sharks in the inaugural final 45-21, and retaining it the following year with an unbeaten campaign, before the Crusaders denied them a hat-trick.
But Spencer and the Blues regained their crown in 2003 when losing only one match and beating the Crusaders in the final. All those deciders were Eden Park sell-outs. A golden era for the competition and the Blues alike.
Another highlight was his All Blacks debut in 1997, when scoring 33 points against Argentina. Then Spencer lit up his first Tri-Nations, scoring 84 points in the All Blacks’ clean sweep of four wins. After injuries and losing out to Andrew Mehrtens, he regained the All Blacks’ outhalf jersey to start all four wins in the 2003 title success, when scoring 60 points.
There was also a 20-point haul on his Tri-Nations debut away to South Africa, and a 22-point haul in a 52-16 win featuring another try in Loftus Versfeld in 2003. The rivalry with the Springboks had a different edge.
“There was always a bit of niggle, a bit of sh*t on the ground. So you were always aware something could happen and you just had to watch your back in those days.”
In all, he played 280 first-class games in New Zealand, scoring 1,896 points including 102 tries – some strike rate for an outhalf. This included 44 games for the All Blacks, and he remains in their top 10 points scorers of all time in Test rugby, with 291 points in his 35 caps.
But the one that got away was the 2003 World Cup, when the All Blacks lost in the semi-finals against Australia in Sydney.
“That would have been nice. I only really had one opportunity because I got injured in ‘99 in the first week [of the tournament] with my knee. In 2003, we had an awesome year, smashing everyone up until the World Cup. But we always understood that World Cups are totally different.
“On the day we got beaten by a better team, and we probably weren’t at our best, but that’s the way World Cups go. When you look back on my career the only thing that really is missing from it would have been a World Cup. But other than that, I wouldn’t change anything.”
He means that too.
“I had fun and, mate, I was blessed. My journey with rugby has been awesome. I was very lucky to come through an era where we could still afford to have fun off the field and no one cared. There was still a bit of old school. You had to be a little bit harder back in those days. But that comes with the eras and times change and you adapt.”
One of Spencer’s most celebrated clips is against the Crusaders in February 2004 in Canterbury, where his rivalry with Mehrtens heightened the hostility toward him. Receiving the ball on his own line in the 80th minute with his team leading 31-29, Spencer winds up a daring left to right skip pass to Joe Rokocoko.
An incredulous Tony Johnson on commentary declares: “Goodness, he’s not going to pass it, is he? He does ... ”
Rokocoko beat two players in a slaloming run before offloading to the supporting Justin Collins. On halfway, Collins is holding the ball one-handed when Spencer steams on to his inside pass and sprints clear.
But, rather than touchdown under the posts, Spencer meanders over to the corner flag in the in-goal area with four team-mates in tow, then touches down, walks back, nails the touchline conversion to deny the Crusaders even a bonus point and gestures to the crowd again with a clenched fist, just stopping himself from raising a middle finger.
“After I set up the ball and as I was walking back, I just caught something in the side of my eye and it was a coin. I saw it on the ground and that’s the only reason why I did that.
“Obviously it stirred up a bit of shit. When the Crusaders play the Blues, that clip is often shown, It’s just one of those things.”
Looking back on those clips, Howlett was like Spencer’s shadow on the pitch.
“Yeah, he just understood what I was about. He knew that I’d do random shit, and he just wanted to be around me. I think we both made each other look good.
“He had an ability to work off the ball and understand me as a player, and just expect anything, because anything could happen. That was just Doug and me. Joe [Rokocoko] would be another one.”
Spencer also explodes another myth, that Joe Schmidt’s arrival at the Blues as backs coach in 2004 heralded Spencer’s departure a year later.
“I think that’s unfair,” says Spencer, noting that he was 28/29 at the time and needed a new challenge.
“We’d just had Peyton at that time and I wondered where my career was going. It probably wasn’t in New Zealand. Young guys were coming through with the All Blacks, like Dan Carter, and I thought maybe it’s just time to move on. Me and Joe probably saw things differently, occasionally, but that’s the way it is. I’ve got no grudges against anyone.”
For Spencer, nothing topped playing for the New Zealand Maoris, not even playing and leading the haka with the All Blacks, and his final game on New Zealand soil was as a half-time replacement for the Maoris in their first ever win over the British & Irish Lions in 2005, when his pace and running threat transformed the game.
“I’m getting a bit emotional now thinking about it,” he admits, “because it’s just an environment that encouraged you to enjoy yourself, and gave you the freedom to play. It was just the culture that we had. We were there to have fun, express and enjoy ourselves. That’s what I loved about the Maori jersey. Our coach was Matt Te Pau and we just felt so comfortable in that environment that I thought ‘I could do anything’.
“It was part of my heritage as well. I’m obviously Maori. That had a big part to play in it. To play my last game for the Maori against the Lions, and leave on such a high, was a perfect ending for my career in New Zealand.”
Then he wandered, first to Northampton (“a great rugby town”) for four seasons and one season with Gloucester. He finished his career in South Africa with the Lions and Golden Lions realising, he laughs “that I’m too old and that the game’s moved on”.
After taking his first steps into coaching, Spencer returned to New Zealand and moved both his parents to Cambridge, near Hamilton, to give them more time with their grandchildren. His tattoos are in honour of his Maori heritage, which came from his maternal side. Sadly, his mum, Wiki Hetariki, passed away last year.
Like all mavericks, Spencer copped criticism, but he is happy in his own skin, and in what his playing career represented.
“I wouldn’t change anything. I got a lot of flak for what I did, but it didn’t stop me from being who I was. I believed in myself. I knew I was going to make mistakes. That was just the nature of the beast. That was the way I played. And with that, came criticism. And I took the criticism. I read it. Most of it was fair, but it didn’t make me go away from what I believed in, and my path of being flamboyant and the player that I was.
“I’m proud of that. I stuck to my guns. I could have changed the way I played because of the amount of criticism I got, but I stayed true to myself. Back in those days, it’s not like it is now. The media were tough. They weren’t afraid to say what they wanted to say. Some of the boys couldn’t handle the shit that they used to say back in the ’90s. The media were pretty ruthless back then. But I stayed true to myself and I’m proud of that.
“It encouraged me as well, to keep wanting to be better. I’m properly thankful that they gave me so much shit. They made me tougher and resilient.”
And what would he like his legacy to be at Terenure?
“Someone who encourages players to back themselves, to enjoy themselves, to help grow them as rugby players and as leaders as well. Just a normal human being. Don’t go on what I’ve done in my career.
“I just want to be known as an approachable guy that can help Terenure win a couple of championships.”
And with that he signs off in trademark style.
“Sweet As.”
