When Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance Michael McGrath and Fine Gael Minister for Public Expenditure Paschal Donohoe delivered Budget 2024, it was another public display of unity from the two politicians many believe are the glue that bind the Coalition together.
It is easy to forget their two parties put aside a century of antipathy stemming from the Civil War when they formed a historic coalition, along with the Green Party, in 2020.
Three years in government – and four years in a confidence and supply arrangement before that – prompt questions on whether there is much to differentiate them in budgetary policy or otherwise.
So are there any knock-out blows left when the two old political foes clash or is it all just shadow boxing?
The Irish Times sat down in Buswells Hotel with, in the Fine Gael corner, Senator and former minister Regina Doherty and, in the Fianna Fáil corner, Senator Malcolm Byrne, to find out.
Both are running in the next general election.
Sum up how your parties’ values applied to the budget?
Regina Doherty What we prided ourselves on, particularly when the economy started recovering, was that we are the party that wants to make sure that people go out to work, that it pays to go to work and we put more of people’s money back in their own pockets – the party that’s pro-enterprise, pro-employment, pro the economy. What’s really important about having a strong economy is how and when you use it. [She points to welfare increases brought in by Fine Gael in recent years.] I hope that’s what we have shown in not just this year’s budget, but in the last 12.
Malcolm Byrne Fianna Fáil have always defined ourselves as the party of education. But equally the other ways to provide opportunities to people are by ensuring people have a roof over their heads, making sure that people have access to employment. What we have seen with this Government, and particularly this budget, is major intervention to try to ensure that people have access to housing. I think the difference then between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and Sinn Féin and some of the far left parties... is that we believe in home ownership.
I hear very little difference
MB We can have differences but still be able to work together and it’s healthy occasionally to have the row. On the housing side there would have been a lot of criticism of very market-driven policies on the part of Fine Gael. We have seen, with Darragh O’Brien in as housing minister, huge State intervention to provide support for social and affordable housing, the help-to-buy scheme, areas like focusing on first-time buyers.
RD So here’s the difficulty that I have: when Fianna Fáil talk about the fact that there wasn’t houses built for years, they never tell you the reason. We all know that there was an international crash; it was handled incredibly badly and poorly here. Very painful decisions were made by Brendan Howlin and Michael Noonan [in the Fine Gael-Labour government] to put the economy back on track so that we had a jobs-led recovery. One of the rewards that we have been able to reap is that we now have money that we can start investing in houses again. The help-to-buy scheme, the cost-rental scheme were born from Eoghan Murphy [the former Fine Gael housing minister], although nobody will ever tell you about that.
MB There was a lot of investment [before the crash] if you look at the number of houses, the roads, infrastructure and investment during that period. There was a [cross-party] economic consensus [during the boom]. The most conservative economic manifesto in [the 2007] election was actually Fianna Fáil’s. The most significant decision in the budget has been about the two sovereign wealth funds. This was something that Michael McGrath was keen to do ...
On disagreements between the parties, in May three Fine Gael junior ministers proposed a €1,000 tax break, kicking off budget season. How did that go down in Fianna Fáil?
MB Very clearly within Fianna Fáil the emphasis was on looking at reducing USC [the universal social charge] but particularly around those who are lower paid workers. What happened in the budget speaks to Fianna Fáil values around significant increase in minimum wage, reducing the USC for those on minimum wage. There will also be tax cuts that will benefit those who are better-off.
RD This isn’t an either-either. That was pure politics. What is important in a Coalition is to retain your identity, no matter how well we aspire to do the same things for the people. And it’s not that we are at pains to say: ‘Oh we’re different’; we are actually different. There is a distinct, different approach on certain key things. There has to be scope for people to be able to maintain and fight for their identity within a Coalition.
There have been signals from Fine Gael that there should be an election pact between the current Coalition parties. If I recall correctly, Fianna Fáil was having none of it?
RD I understand why different parties want to go to the electorate with different proposals. There’s nothing worse than being told: ‘You are all the same.’ I would have absolutely no problem transferring my vote down to both of them [Fianna Fáil and the Greens] and would ask obviously for the same. The alternative is that we will end up with more Sinn Féin TDs.
MB Fianna Fáil will be contesting as an independent party because we will want to ensure that there is the biggest Fianna Fáil stamp on the next government. Fianna Fáil voters should transfer their votes to political parties and candidates that share broadly similar approaches.
RD That’s us. You can just say: “Fine Gael.”
MB There are other parties.
Are you suggesting transferring votes to Sinn Féin?
MB No, but if you support principles such as a strong economy and you don’t believe in taxing the hell out of enterprise so that jobs aren’t created; if you believe in supporting people in the aspiration to home ownership, Ireland being at the heart of the European Union, then my argument is you support those political parties that believe in those things. I think you will probably see more transfers between Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and indeed other centrist parties like the Greens and Labour.
Can you both rule out your party going into Coalition with Sinn Féin?
RD I can.
MB I can’t see it happening.
Can’t see it happening, or you can’t rule it out?
MB What I will say about politics is you never say never, right? Particularly given the speed at which Sinn Féin are abandoning a lot of their policies. If a proposal ever came it would be put to our membership and I can’t see our membership voting for that.
Do you foresee a future merger between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil?
RD Why?
They are very similar parties
RD: We are and we aren’t. You definitely could, to my mind, describe us as two sides of the same coin, but we are distinctly different and it isn’t just about history. Myself and [Fianna Fáil Senator] Lisa Chambers are really good friends. It doesn’t take that much for us to be going into our tribal corners. That is in our DNA, whether we like it or not.
So no merger?
RD I don’t think it would be good for democracy and I don’t think it would be good for Fine Gael.
MB I don’t think it’s healthy. I mean there are differences. That doesn’t mean that we are not going to enter into Coalition.
The debate has been edited for brevity
