Dan Carter and Ronan O'Gara can fill a room. They walk in and inflate in size, seize the space. Today they are talking Lions and All Blacks and in a rare exception, they almost shrink from traditional certainties.
That’s what the Lions’ tour has achieved so far. It has fractured conviction and wobbled confidence.
O’Gara struggles to pick a Lions Test team. Carter says the Lions can’t beat the All Blacks with defence alone, that their attack is broken, or at least has broken down.
That final pass under pressure, the must-make tackle and the hard, flat pass at speed have all gone missing and it is damaging. Carter talks of aspirations and maybes and preparation for the match. But, cutting to the chase, how many Lions would get into the New Zealand side right now, he is asked.
“Yeah...you’re asking a very biased All Black on that one,” he says. “I can see the headline there already. You’re setting me up here!”
No, just trying to find out what you genuinely think of this Lions side, what impression it has made after losing two out the four matches played in New Zealand and how it compares to the number one side in world rugby.
He hesitates.
“Emmmm....I mean there’s some quality players in that Lions squad, but.....emm...I have to dig myself out of a hole here. I can see the headline back in New Zealand!”
Maybe concluding that no Lions player is his answer is reading in too much, or, at least no name immediately comes into his head. Brian O’Driscoll had been the standard correct reply in past tours. Precious few other names came up.
So the crossbar is lowered and the former World Player of the Year and All Black outhalf is asked to identify a player who could pose a threat in the first Test, a player who could hurt New Zealand.
After Waisake Naholo ripped through their defence for Highlanders, who in the Lions could send a frisson of fear through the All Blacks’ defensive line, who has an x-factor.
“Yeah it kind of feels like they’ve been holding back George North. He has got the potential to get that go-forward ball and can be an amazing finisher,” says Carter.
Completely different
“I think come the Test matches it’s going to be completely different to anything that we’ve seen, so I don’t think you can judge the Lions on their games to date.
“They’re still experimenting. They are there for the Test matches. Okay they might have lost a bit of confidence from what’s happened but they’ve still got two extremely tough and important games where they can work on things.”
What nobody knows, maybe even Warren Gatland, is who is going to work on things and in what position they are going to work. Neither Carter or O'Gara knows which outhalf Gatland will play. Owen Farrell has been the standout player but there could be a temptation to play Johnny Sexton at 10 and Farrell in the centre, casting out both Robbie Henshaw or Ben Te'o.
But two playmakers, at least for O’Gara, is one too many for the first Test outing.
“I don’t think so, no,” says O’Gara with typical candour.
“I don’t see how he can start the two of them in a Test match. I just think it’s a good idea maybe with 30 minutes to go. But starting Johnny at 10, it means playing Farrell at 12. Physically I just don’t think it’s a good idea for the first 30 minutes against Sonny Bill Williams or whoever they are going to play in the centre.
“I think they are two 10s to be honest. I think Farrell plays his best rugby at 10. I think he’s an exceptional player when he has full control.
“Up to yesterday I would probably have gone with Farrell but I don’t know,” he adds. “I think his performances for the last 24 months have been better than anyone else’s as a 10.
“But he missed a bad kick [v Highlanders]. I know it’s only once but it was still a bad kick, so that’s why the alarm bells went off in my head. Are they going to play Halfpenny in this game to kick the points?”
The All Blacks want to build their legacy, add to history, says Carter. It is a once-every-12-year opportunity that not all players experience. It means something and the bigger the player the more it means. Here at least there is certainty.
“When that [2005] Lions series did come around, everything in and around it was just at another level,” he says. “To me it felt like a stepping stone to stamping my name on the world stage. “
