Those football men who know Alex Ferguson best, and these are people who have spent time in his company for the guts of four decades, said that in the wake of Tuesday night's home defeat by Bayern Munich they could not remember seeing the lord of Old Trafford so low after a game.

Nor was it simply the 86thminute goal from Bayern's substitute, Paulo Sergio, that had subdued the normally irrepressible Ferguson; it was the fact that by early in the second half Manchester United's play had become pedestrian and predictable. For a man who prides himself on his team's attacking verve, this was unacceptable.

But that was the situation, and Ferguson must take some responsibility for not changing either personnel or style when it was clear that the fleet feet on the night belonged to the legs of Germans, Stefan Effenberg, Jens Jeremies and Mehmet Scholl.

While their influence grew minute by minute, Ryan Giggs and David Beckham's faded, and there is real concern within United that both players may have reached their peak.

It is becoming apparent that Ferguson and his coaching staff are fast approaching an analysis of Beckham's talent that many of those not distracted by his celebrity reached some time ago. There is a limit to Beckham's ability; he cannot beat a defender in the manner of a winger and opponents such as Bayern's Bixente Lizarazu have worked him out. There is no extension to his game.

Similarly Giggs, who can inspire his colleagues on European duty with a few quick solo salvos, has not progressed over the past two to three seasons in a way that might have been expected. The United management were particularly disappointed with his contribution on Tuesday night.

They had anticipated so much more given that in the afternoon Giggs had signed a new five-year contract, one that will keep him in Manchester until he is 32.

Giggs began relatively well on Tuesday, but the United plan of Andy Cole dragging Sammy Kuffour out of the middle and Giggs then filling that space was not implemented fully.

Giggs was not wholly to blame for that - Bayern proved themselves a fine, tight team - and the Welshman said in mitigation yesterday that United are suffering from the alteration in style necessitated by giving away too many goals away from home in Europe. Ferguson has increased United's defensive priorities, hence the new talk of patience.

"We had to change things especially away from home," said Giggs, "because we were losing so many goals to counterattacks. But maybe that has stopped us from doing what we did a couple of years ago. What we did against Bayern was a prime example of that.

"We started well, but didn't look as though we were going to overrun them, which we probably would have done a couple of years ago.

"When we won it in '99 we always seemed to be coming off big games in the league or the FA Cup semi-final, but now that the league is more comfortable we need to get that rush of adrenalin back. We're not playing badly, but we need to regain that spark."

And how. The statistics emerging about Munich yesterday were daunting. Of 73 European matches Bayern have played at home over 31 seasons' involvement, Bayern have lost just three. The heaviest defeat was 2-1.

That result would be enough for United to go through, but as Bayern have conceded one goal at home this season in Europe, it is hardly guaranteed. Just as significantly, United have won only one away game in the Champions' League - against Sturm Graz.

"Our season starts now," Ferguson had said on Monday. It might be over quicker than he thought. No wonder he was depressed.