A former director of Joseph Murphy Structural Engineering said yesterday he would regard a payment to a politician "for planning matters" as both morally and criminally wrong.
Mr Gabriel Grehan said that when he heard in 1996 of the allegation that in 1989 some £30,000 of JMSE funds was used to make a payment to a politician [Mr Ray Burke, former minister for foreign affairs] in exchange for a favourable view of one of the company's planning applications, he couldn't believe it would happen because it was morally wrong.
Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, asked him what steps he took to establish the truth about the allegations.
"I asked my two colleagues [Mr John Maher, the company accountant at the time and Mr Frank Reynolds, managing director]. They said they didn't know, that as far as they were concerned it was an inter-company transaction like myself and they couldn't believe it," said Mr Grehan.
He said they did confirm that £30,000 had been paid out by the company in 1989.
Mr Grehan then agreed with Mr Gallagher when he said: "My understanding is that in 1996 you became aware that questions were being asked about an alleged payment of money to a politician and you understood the politician to be Mr Raphael Burke . . .
"And in order to check this out you spoke with Mr John Maher who was the company accountant . . . and whose responsibility it was to report to you as a director of the company . . . And having made inquiries of him, at the end of 1996 Mr Maher told you £30,000 was in fact paid to Ray Burke, and that it had been refunded to JMSE by another Murphy company."
"Yes, yes," said Mr Grehan.
Mr Gallagher asked him if he spoke to Mr Reynolds.
"I just asked him if £30,000 had come out of the company account in 1989 as alleged by, I think, Frank Connolly [journalist with the Sunday Business Post]," he said. "And it had come out and it was paid back within a matter of two weeks by another group company, Murphy company."
Mr Gallagher said he took it that Mr Grehan would have had "open and frank discussion with Mr Reynolds in relation to the matter."
Mr Grehan replied that he would not.
"He was a fellow director of yours?" asked Mr Gallagher. "He was a close friend of yours?"
"He's still a close friend of mine, yes," said Mr Grehan.
Mr Gallagher asked him if he found what he had learnt morally wrong.
"If it was political, if it was a political donation, it would be morally wrong if it was for planning matters," said Mr Grehan.
He said he neither asked whether it was a political donation nor why Mr Burke was paid £30,000. He said he could not recall if he asked Mr Reynolds if he knew Mr Burke had received £30,000 or whether he told him that he knew.
He said he never discussed the allegations of payment to Mr Burke with Mr Reynolds, though he said Mr Reynolds had told him in 1996 that he was aware of the 1989 payment of £30,000 from JMSE.
